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Outer Reef vs Fleming vs Grand Banks

Discussion in ' General Trawler Discussion ' started by bclb , Dec 14, 2019 .

bclb New Member

Going to get a 55-65 footer. Like the open layout of the OR, but don't have a feel for the reliability, maintainability, durability, or seaworthiness of the OR. Fleming seems to be rock solid on those, but would like to hear comparisons. Marlow not really being considered.

BFOD New Member

My 2 cents - Fleming 55, no place in the engine room, i was in the market for a used Fleming 55 i was very impressed until I saw the engine compartment - GB outdated design unless to buy a new, in the EU used GB has no value anymore. if you need seaworthiness, go see a Nordhavn or Selene. The new Selene 60 explorer will be a game changer. I have seen a Selene 62 year 2009, this is a ship not a boat and you can´t compare with GB or Fleming

olderboater Senior Member

Outer Reef is a great seaworthy and well built boat. I would agree on Selene being good but that wasn't what you asked. Fleming, I'd prefer the 58' or 65' to the 55'. Fleming is unbeatable in terms of quality, although not typically a boat one uses trans-oceanic. I do like that you have a bit extra speed with Fleming. Grand Banks is a completely different type boat as a coastal cruiser. Unfortunately, things came mostly to a halt with them and now the line is being totally revamped and the new Grand Banks 60 is a fantastic boat but it's still a coastal boat, just now one with speed and performance.

PacBlue Senior Member

BFOD said: ↑ My 2 cents - Fleming 55, no place in the engine room, i was in the market for a used Fleming 55 i was very impressed until I saw the engine compartment - GB outdated design unless to buy a new, in the EU used GB has no value anymore. if you need seaworthiness, go see a Nordhavn or Selene. The new Selene 60 explorer will be a game changer. I have seen a Selene 62 year 2009, this is a ship not a boat and you can´t compare with GB or Fleming Click to expand...

mapism Senior Member

bclb said: ↑ would like to hear comparisons Click to expand...

seaworthiness depends on the cruising plans, and this is the first question one has to ask himself. Hours or days offshore. And for maintainability the Fleming 55 is the worst i have ever seen, simply not workable to enter the engine room at sea. This was the only reason i didn´t buy one. Fleming 55 will cruise happily at 10 knots, but yes maximum continuous is 15 knots ... for less than 20 hours. In short, to answer the question, first define your cruising plans.

BFOD said: ↑ In short, to answer the question, first define your cruising plans. Click to expand...

BFOD said: ↑ seaworthiness depends on the cruising plans, and this is the first question one has to ask himself. Hours or days offshore. And for maintainability the Fleming 55 is the worst i have ever seen, simply not workable to enter the engine room at sea. This was the only reason i didn´t buy one. Fleming 55 will cruise happily at 10 knots, but yes maximum continuous is 15 knots ... for less than 20 hours. In short, to answer the question, first define your cruising plans. Click to expand...

leeky Senior Member

The complaint about Fleming engine rooms is their height, or lack of it.

Engine Room Height can come with a trade off in form stability and windage in boats under 60 feet. I like the trade off as the Fleming has an appealing low profile, easy to board and get around and is easy to maneuver in a blow in close quarters.

Slimshady Senior Member

Owned a outereef 73, c 18 , boat is well built and jeff stood behind his boats. When I'm in the market for that style of boat I would buy another. She had lots of room in engine room and systems were well laid out and accessible. The Taiwanese yard builds a solid boat, with good fit and finish. Put 1100 hrs on her in 4 years with no mishaps. Hope this helps.

The complaint about Fleming engine rooms is their height, or lack of it. Click to expand...

PacBlue said: ↑ Engine Room Height can come with a trade off in form stability and windage in boats under 60 feet. I like the trade off as the Fleming has an appealing low profile, easy to board and get around and is easy to maneuver in a blow in close quarters. Click to expand...

Capt Ralph Senior Member

olderboater said: ↑ but also talk to existing and former owners. Click to expand...

bayoubud Senior Member

You might want to add the 54/62 Offshore to consider. Many like them better than the Fleming. Similar design and quality, with less exterior maintenance.

olderboater said: ↑ Fleming does work to keep the air draft on the 55' at 16'. Still, the ER height, while not tall enough for many of us to stand, is very good for a 55' boat and the walkway between the engines quite accommodating. Stabilizers were mentioned and they're fully accessible with nothing in the way. They are intentionally left open. The Outer Reef 58' is not standing height if you're over 6' tall either, with a very similar ER design. One just needs to check for themselves, but also talk to existing and former owners. Click to expand...

maldwin Senior Member

I have never met a Fleming owner who didn’t like his boat. Best, Maldwin

maldwin said: ↑ I have never met a Fleming owner who didn’t like his boat. Best, Maldwin Click to expand...

Kapn Member

BFOD said: ↑ Thx, My remark was about the maintainability and its engine room. Go inside with hot engines, …. you will burn yourself. Try to access – repair the stabilizers or genset, good luck Most Fleming owners have deep pockets, and in general maintainability it is not there problem. Click to expand...

Kapn said: ↑ Stabilizers were uncovered, unlike some motoryachts where they get hidden with cabinetry. Click to expand...

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How Fleming’s 55-Foot Cruiser Became One of the Boating World’s Most Successful Designs

The fleming 55 is in a category of one among offshore cruisers, sporting the same exterior and hull as its 1986 debut., howard walker, howard walker's most recent stories.

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Of course, there have been some modifications. While the hull, superstructure and structural layout of the interior have changed little since the original design, the interior design has constantly evolved to reflect the wish lists of the 55’s intrepid band of owners to stay in sync with contemporary fashion trends.

“It’s a lot like Porsche’s 911. The silhouette is the same but pretty much everything else has changed,” says Kevin Althoff, brand specialist with Fleming East Coast dealer Burr Yacht Sales, the world’s top Fleming seller.

Except for the interior-exterior comparison, the Fleming 55 is nothing like the Porsche 911. It was designed as a no-nonsense, long-distance cruiser that two people, typically a couple, could handle alone, without crew, with an offshore hull that could take on big seas, while also voyaging for thousands of miles on a single tank of diesel. It fueled the dreams of hundreds of intrepid cruisers who wanted to see the world on their terms.

Adding to the appeal, the 55’s semi-displacement hull from American naval architect Larry Drake has also passed the test of time. That distinctive, flared bow keeps the decks dry even in gnarly seas, while the long, deep keel not only protects the props in skinny water and helps the yacht track straight, especially in following seas.

And harking back to the Porsche 911 analogy, it’s the mechanical improvements that have helped the 55 stay modern and relevant in today’s crowded cruiser market. The latest 55s come with Cummins QSC 500-hp common-rail turbo diesels that can punch the 68,000-pound Fleming to a very un-trawler-like 21 mph.

Throttle back to a typical 11-mph cruising speed, and the efficiency of the Cummins delivers a miserly fuel burn of just 10 gallons per hour, or a gallon per mile. Ease down to 9 mph and the 55 will run for over 2,000 miles on a tank.

“It’s this duality our owners love. The ability to cruise near silently and economically at low speeds, yet if the weather takes a turn for the worst, there’s the speed to get you home fast,” says Althoff.

Inside, it’s all old-world elegance and craftsmanship, with lovely satin-varnished cabinetry and teak-and-holly floors mixed with contemporary fabrics and upholstery.

The rather narrow main salon opens out onto the roughly 250-square-foot rear deck, which is big enough for a party. At the forward end is the well-equipped U-shaped galley in the favored “galley-up” location.

The salon also comes with one of our favorite features, a dumb waiter that shuttles food and beverages to the flybridge, avoiding the need to carry everything up steps. That’s probably a one-of-a-kind feature for a 55-footer.

Below-decks, the layout is essentially unchanged from the original design. That means a long, central corridor with twin-berth cabins on either side. The rather cramped master cabin pushed up into the bow is one of the yacht’s few drawbacks.

Fleming responded to criticisms of that tight master by introducing the Fleming 58 in 2012, which could be specified with a spacious master cabin amidships across the full beam. Despite that, the 55 continues to be the brand’s best-seller.

Which proves that bigger isn’t always better. Even after 36 years of production, and a price that starts at just over $3 million, there’s still a three-year waiting list for the iconic 55.

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Fleming 58 Boat Review

From our good friends at Chuck Hovey Yachts comes this exciting 58-foot, go anywhere motor yacht. Here’s some of what the builder has to say about the new Flemings 58:

“On the 25th anniversary of the founding of the company, Fleming Yachts are proud to announce the introduction of the all new Fleming 58.

After extensive research and input from existing Fleming owners, we identified the need for a boat to bridge the gap between the 55 and the 65. While retaining the Fleming classic lines, the 58 is an entirely new boat designed from the keel up. The naval architects selected to assist the in-house Fleming design team were Norman Wright and Sons in Brisbane, Australia who, with their special expertise in hull design and tank testing, have been designing semi-displacement passagemakers for more than 100 years.

“Standard Power is a pair of Cummins QSC 500 engines, optional MAN 800 HP engines are also offered. Standard equipment is the very effecient Sea Torque shaft system which transfers thrust from the propellers directly to the hull structure and eliminates the need for cutless bearings and stuffing boxes.

“The Fleming 58 offers a variety of accommodation layouts, including a full beam, master cabin with access from the pilothouse. The Cockpit is capacious – larger than the Fleming 55 by 25 sq. ft. (2.3 sq. meters). The built-in cabinets either side of the salon aft doors provide for a variety of options including a fridge/freezer, sink, and an aft control station.

“A built-in settee or matching barrel chairs provide additional seating in the salon, the extra beam of the Fleming 58 is most noticeable in the Salon & Pilothouse.

“The Fleming 58 is of course built at the renowned Tung Hwa yard in Southern Taiwan, where every Fleming ever built has been constructed, starting with Fleming 50 hull 001 in 1985. Tung Hwa build exclusively for Fleming and many craftsmen from the early days are still with us. They are very proud of their work and their experience, passion and skill are passed down from one generation to the next.”

Specifications: LOA – 58′ 0″ (17.68m); Beam – 17′ 6″ (5.33m); Max Draft – 5′ 0″ (1.52m); Fuel Capacity – 1,450 g (5,489 l); Water Capacity – 320 g (1,211 l); Holding Tank – 200 g (757 l); Engines: 500 HP, Twin, Inboard, Diesel, QSC 8.3. Northwest Dealer: Chuck Hovey Yachts, 901 Fairview Ave. N., Seattle, WA 98109; 206-624-1908. www.chuckhoveyyachts.com

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Tony Fleming

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...that every Fleming Yacht bears the distinctive look of the first boat. Of course, they are very different under the hood as we continue to develop and refine the designs as a result of feedback, experience and new technology. Our boats may have the classic look but, technically, they are always at the cutting edge in design and equipment. Our focus as a company has always been on the boats themselves and in working to make them the very best that we can. It is for this reason that we go to work every day and do what we do.

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Fleming 78: Quiet Times

• By George Sass Sr.
• Updated: January 3, 2013

“Victor, are you ready to start the engines?” I asked the captain.

“They’re running,” he replied.

I soon discovered that, even under way, the Fleming 78 was so quiet and free of vibration that we had to open the pilothouse door to hear any significant noise — and what we heard was the sweet sound of water, parted by the ship’s bulbous bow, gently flowing aft.

Flemings are known for their whisper-quiet, smooth ride, but the 78 — evolved from the builder’s previous flagship 75-footer — sets new standards in noise suppression. “The owner was very keen that his new Fleming be as quiet as possible,” said Duncan Cowie, the man now running this 25-year-old company, along with engineer Adi Shard, founder Tony Fleming’s nephew. “We installed nearly 100 additional sheets of lead foam insulation throughout the boat.” Bulkheads were thickened to accommodate the extra lead insulation.

Also contributing to the ship’s quietness are the new V-8 common-rail 1,000-horsepower MAN diesel engines instead of the normally specified 1,550-horsepower MANs. “The owner, a very experienced yachtsman who has owned a Fleming 65 and a much larger expedition-style yacht, prefers cruising in the 8- to 10-knot range, so these engines are ideally matched to this particular 78, providing an especially quiet ride,” Cowie added. An Aquadrive anti-vibration system allows the engines to be soft-mounted, even further reducing noise and vibration.

Cowie told me that the bulbous bow and additional waterline length, created by extending the hull beneath the swim platform, have improved fuel efficiency over the Fleming 75 by 13 percent at 8 knots and 10 percent at 9 knots. “A bulbous bow has an optimum performance range of just plus or minus 3 knots, so this particular bulb design is different from the ones on the next 78s meant to cruise at higher speeds.” Top speed on this 78 is 16.1 knots versus the 22 to 23 knots projected for the more powerful standard models.

This yacht’s solid fiberglass hull is hand-laid and reinforced with interlocking frames and full-length stringers for superior stiffness and strength. Having fallen off breaking seas into 20-foot troughs while accompanying Tony Fleming aboard his Fleming 65 during a voyage to Iceland, I can attest to the integrity of the builder’s robust construction.

Vinylester resins, first used by Fleming below the waterline to resist osmotic blistering, are now used throughout, eliminating fabric print-through and creating an excellent fiberglass finish. Indeed, the new 78 will turn heads with her traditional good looks. Even with a dual-level flying bridge, she has a relatively low profile, a longtime signature of the brand.

Setting her apart from her smaller siblings is the fact that the 78 provides private accommodations for the crew. The area includes a double and single berth, a large head with shower and a seating area with desk. A microwave, refrigerator and TV provide the captain with comfortable quarters, and the ship’s monitoring system allows him to keep tabs on the yacht when he isn’t at the helm.

The degree to which the yard will accommodate special requests and custom touches is evident in this 78. First, the owner chose not to have access to the master stateroom from the main salon, but only from the pilothouse’s spiral stairway. Subsequent 78s will have the standard straight stairway from the starboard side of the main salon. Second, traditional V-berths, instead of a centerline island berth, in the forward guest stateroom give the cabin more floor space — room to stand and dress — and an increase in flexibility when friends and family cruise aboard. This cabin has its own head and shower. A second guest stateroom features twin berths, plus a private head and shower. Additional sound-deadening material, extra-thick bulkheads and a full-width fuel tank between the machinery space and the living area turn each stateroom into a quiet sanctuary.

In the tradition of a shore-side family room, the spacious salon features a dedicated dining area adjacent to the fully equipped galley. This particular yacht had an amazing array of home-theater and satellite TV components, so if the guests do not want to watch what is playing on the big screen, they can retire to their staterooms or to the flying bridge and watch a program of their choosing on a TV monitor fed by an individual satellite receiver.

Like all Flemings, the 78 boasts a true pilothouse separated from the main living area, a feature that speaks to the serious voyager and sets her apart from a number of her competitors. The captain and navigator will appreciate the twin Stidd helm chairs, large and easy-to-reach electronics console, generous chart workspace and easy-access electrical panels. A peek behind these panels reveals properly harnessed and identified wiring runs and meticulously dressed connections. A day-head, a settee with a dining table and a drop-down pilot berth allow the on-watch crew to tend to business without disturbing those who are off-watch in the salon, galley or staterooms.

This well-thought-out flexibility extends to the outdoors. The dual-level flying bridge provides an upper helm, which features an electrically operated electronics console that can be lowered when the boat’s in port and the focus is on R&R. Her centerline helm is properly elevated to allow good forward vision, and there is a forward-facing double seat on each side of the helm chair, ideal for those who want to join the captain while the yacht is under way. An adjustable double-lounge platform is positioned across from the outdoor widescreen TV.

Four steps down, the lower bridge sports a wet bar, barbecue grill, refrigerator, ice maker, dining table and settee. A hardtop and glass curtains protect both the upper and lower bridge areas. Aft is the boat deck where the owner’s Boston Whaler is stowed, and where an additional control station provides excellent visibility when backing into a slip.

Below, abaft the entrance to the main salon, a protected lower deck area with dining table and settee gives guests an ideal place to gather and watch the world go by. All of these areas, each on a separate level, make it possible for guests and family to find their own space during long cruises. If one just wants to get away from the crowd or conversation, they’ll find plenty of areas to do so.

Beyond all the comfort, luxury and beauty of the Fleming 78 is an engineering masterpiece. A leisurely walk around the engine room — yes, you can actually walk around in there — revealed the company’s obsession with locating and installing fuel filters, valves, pumps, engine inspection points, hydraulics — every part and system that’s critical to the yacht’s operation — for easy inspection and service. There’s even a separate machinery room where key electrical components, air-conditioning compressors and a second watermaker are located. Keeping a close eye on these systems as well as the status of tank levels, water pressure, fluid temperatures and more is a Böning ship monitoring system. With 15-inch monitors in the pilothouse, flying bridge and crew quarters, the captain can flip through pages of data displayed graphically and view images from any one of several CCTV cameras throughout the yacht.

Superb aesthetics. Robust construction. Flexible accommodations. Intelligent engineering. This new 78 has all the traits of the highly regarded Fleming line of motoryachts, which include the 55 , 65 and soon-to-be-launched 58.

TEST CONDITIONS: Speeds were measured by GPS in the Pacific Ocean off Newport Beach, California, in flat seas and light winds, with a full load of fuel two-thirds load of water and three people on board. Fuel consumption was calculated by the electronic engine-monitoring system. Sound levels were measured in the pilothouse with all exterior doors and windows closed.

Fleming Yachts , 949-645-1024; flemingyachts.com All photos courtesy of Fleming Yachts.

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