seaward 17 sailboat review

At The Helm

At The Helm is about sharing my sailing experiences and innovations I have tried over many years. I have owned many different classes from dinks, catamarans and settling on trailerable mono-hulls. Your sailing grounds are from lakes to the oceans and the capability of going solo or with family, or friends is possible. I believe if you can sail, you are ready for the unexpected. With that experience, there is very little in life that will stand in your way.

Monday, March 21, 2011

Seaward fox 17.

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A trailerable pocket cruiser introduced in 1984 by Hake Yachts, this pricy plumb-bowed sloop is made for exploring the shallows. It's laid out for a cruising couple or young family.

Nick Hake graduated from the Milwaukee School of Engineering in 1974, then pulled up stakes and left the cold Great Lakes winters for sunny Miami, where he became head chef at Horatio’s restaurant in the tower of the Coconut Grove Hotel. While working nights in that occupation, he began building boats for profit, starting with molds and dinghies. Of those times, he says “It’s what I wanted to do. I love boats and always wanted to be self-employed.”

Within the year, he was ready to take the plunge into full-time boatbuilding, so he hung out his shingle and set up shop. In the ensuing eight years he built 2,000 dinghies before introducing a 17-foot sloop he called the Slipper. Eventually stretched to 18 feet, the boat was renamed The Fox, to distinguish it from a competitor’s daysailer called The Hen.

Five years later Hake introduced a 22-footer, and named his company Seaward. He eventually stretched the 22 into a 23, which he still builds; then, exhibiting a case of one-foot-itis, made a 24-footer. That one he stretched to 25 feet—and that boat is the subject of our story. It’s built in the Stuart, Florida warehouse that Hake established in 1984. along with its 18, 23-, and 32-foot siblings.

All of Hake’s boats are shallow-draft designs for trailer sailors. He’s in the process of building tooling for the prototype of a 45-footer for his personal use that will be put into production after testing in the Caribbean. It, too, is designed with a shallow draft for gunkholers.

Since its formation, the company has produced 2,000 dinghies, 1,000 Foxes, 300 23-footers, 591 25-footers, and 41 of its relatively new 32- footer.

In 1993 Hake was approached by a group of Philadelphia lawyers who owned a conglomeration of other businesses, and he sold them the company. However, after two years, the economics of the boatbuilding business wore thin with the investors. When they offered to sell the company back to Hake for pennies on the dollar, he again assumed ownership. “I learned how much I missed the business,” he says. “Now I have the luxury of managing it as a non-starver, compared to some other builders.”

Design Of his designs Hake says, “I have no interest in racing, but I do want to go fast. I want to design and build boats that will go as fast as possible, within the context of boats that are gunkholers.”

He categorizes the Seaward 25 as a “pocket cruiser for adult audiences. I designed a boat that is the target boat I would build for myself for cruising in Florida’s waters and in the open sea down to the islands. I built it for the stuff I do.”

The hull is designed with a nearly plumb bow and stern to maximize waterline, and performance. The company’s brochures are misleading here: The LWL is published as 23′, but is 23’8″; the LOA is 26’9″. However, the length on deck at the headstay is nearly identical to the LWL, the difference accounted for by the anchor platform.

Hake describes the hull shape as having a “spherical tumblehome,” with soft chines and bilges, as compared to flatter sections on other boats. Considering her displacement of 3,600 pounds, of which 1,200 pounds is ballast, and 280 square feet of sail, the design produces a tender performer.

He says she performs best when heeled 10 degrees, and that sail should be shortened when the wind pipes up to 15-17 knots. Sailing a test boat in 8 knots of breeze with a full main and 135% genoa, we were within Hake’s recommended heel angle and the helm was balanced.

Of the relatively high topsides and bow, he says “they’re designed that way because I don’t want water coming over the bow. I don’t like to be wet.”

Underwater appendages are a shallow, 2′ 1″ deep, 8-foot long fixed keel, and a fairly small, low-aspect transom-hung rudder. In a modification from early models, Hake added a 26″ wing to the aft part of the keel in 1989. The wing helps increase the keel’s profile when heeled, and, according to Hake, improves upwind perfomance.

The Seaward 25 has been on the market since 1984 in various models, and is continually evaluated with an eye to improving performance or livability. It was last redesigned in 1995.

Appearance Curbside, this boat’s appearance and hints of her personality seem to change with one’s point of view. Viewed from the forward quarter, her most striking characteristics are a plumb bow, a high, sloping sheer line, and beam carried well aft, with a bit of tumblehome near the cockpit.

In profile, she looks workmanlike. A moderate sailplan on a single- spreader 7/8 rig balances a cabintop extending far enough forward of the mast to carry headroom into the forward cabin without appearing top-heavy.

Her profile is accented by the anchor platform, four shiny stainless steel ports, and bow and stern pulpits. Call her gracefully workmanlike, or purposefully fair, depending on your point of view.

Deck Layout Since she was conceived by Hake as a “sailboat for mature audiences,” the rig, layout of deck gear, and cockpit size are straightforward and uncomplicated. Though wheel steering is an option, and space is available for installation of cockpit speakers, she’s a far cry from a dockside entertainment center. The wheel diameter is 24″, which allows easy movement for helmsman and access to the stern gate. However, after our test sail we concluded that we’d prefer steering with either a tiller or a larger wheel, so steering from the rail doesn’t wear out the triceps.

With 46″ of clearance between the wheel pedestal and companionway, and 25″ wide cockpit sole, she’ll seat four on seats and two in aft corners. Seats are 15″ wide and backrests 11″ high, adequate for most adults. Moving around in the cockpit while underway will be a greater challenge if she’s equipped with a tiller.

With the mainsheet located mid-boom, the trimmer operates at the companionway. Primary winches are close at hand, so the helmsman can steer without interfering with crew; conversely, the controls are close enough to allow relatively easy singlehanded sailing.

Halyards are led aft through stainless turning blocks to Ronstan rope clutches and an Anderson #10 winch. Replacement of primary winches with Anderson #16 self-tailers is a $650 option.

The starboard lazarette is 28″ deep, 34″ inches wide, and more than 6 feet long—adequate for storage of an inflatable dinghy or spare sails. Space for a 6-gallon fuel tank is located under the aft starboard seat. Whether equipped with a one-lung diesel or outboard, this is a good idea that other builders of boats this size would do well to emulate. The tank is easily accessible, portable, saves space belowdecks, and reduces production costs.

There’s no locker to port since the space below is occupied by a quarterberth. The seat lid raises to provide access or ventiliation to the berth.

A recent change from wood to Delrin runners for companionway hatchboards means the hatch has decreased friction, maintenance needs, and cost, and greater weather resistance.

The deck is surrounded by 22″ pulpits and a 20″ tall lifeline. Movement underway was unimpeded, except by a dodger that narrowed the space between the cockpit and toerail. Shrouds dead-ended at the top of the cabintop and stainless steel handrails on the cabintop all provide excellent handholds. The nonskid has a very aggressive pattern that provides grip on a wet deck and adds to her appearance.

At the bow, a stainless steel strike rail forward of the hawsepipe protects the deck from being damaged by ground tackle. The anchor well, a compartment isolated from the forward cabin, holds 20-30 feet of chain and 150 feet of line. It drains overboard. A single 10″ stainless cleat, larger than those found on most similar-sized boats, is on the foredeck. A Bowmar bow hatch is 17″ square.

As on many boats with deck-stepped masts, electrical connections may create problems. The wiring connections at the butt of the mast can be damaged or kicked loose, but maybe that goes with the territory.

The backstay is attached to the stern pulpit, and this concerned us: It was hard to see how to get good headstay tension, and with mid-boom sheeting we thought there might even be mast stability worries. Hake says the mast is so stiff that bending it is not worth trying. As for strength, he provided photos of a boat suspended from a crane with lines attached to bow and stern pulpits.

Belowdecks Hake espouses two principles that affect his approach to designing spaces belowdecks. The first places function ahead of form: “We use every inch of space we can, and design so everything can be removed and the interior hosed out for cleaning.” That’s a worthy objective, certainly more easily accomplished on a 25-footer than a larger cruiser. Solid doors, however, are installed for privacy in the forward stateroom and head.

Second: “We use no carpeting, cloth, or Formica, because they tend to absorb moisture and odors, peel, chip and tear, and are hard to clean.” The company will, however, install wood battens on the hull in the cabin for owners wishing for a warmer feel.

Arrangement of spaces belowdecks is straightforward. The galley runs fore and aft to port, opposite the head; a short settee to port sits opposite a 6- footer to starboard that converts to a berth. Other sleeping accommodations are in the bow and a quarterberth in the port quarter.

The dining table is mounted on the bulkhead and secured with an eye and hook, but has no legs. It is deployed by being unlatched to a horizontal position and moved horizontally on a stainless steel bar until situated amidships. At that point, two adults on both sides of the table can dine. It’s a good arrangement, except that when not in use, the wire securing the table to the bulkhead forms a loop that could catch an unsuspecting passenger. Add Velcro and the problem is solved.

Headroom in the cabin is 5′ 6″, but slightly higher in the galley when the hatch is open.

Operating space on the galley counter is 19″ x 15″ inches, and the space in which the stove is mounted 25″ x 42″—adequate for the preparation of typical sailing meals. The galley may be equipped with a one- or two-burner Origo alcohol stove. The ice box is big enough to hold two large ice blocks.

While there are bunks for four, real privacy will be hard to find, as on any boat this size. It’s best for a couple, or a couple with one or two small fry.

The forward cabin has a 7′ V-berth that is 57″ wide at the head. Clearance between the top of the cushion and the deck is 39″, so there’s room to dress while seated on the cushion without banging the deck. A vanity to starboard is 30″ x 16″; storage is in a hanging locker to port and shelves lining the hull. Fresh air comes from three vents.

Like most quarterberths, this one is designed to double as a storage area. The berth is 80″ long and 32″ wide, outfitted with a thin pad. When not in use, the pad can be rolled up and stored in straps attached to the hull. However, a crewmember intending to sleep frequently in the space will benefit from a thicker pad.

Interestingly, the designer’s intent is for two crew to sleep athwartships when the port and starboard settees are united across the center of the saloon to create a double berth.

The head is a small, enclosed space with a sit-down shower, Jabsco toilet, and one opening port. There’s no sink, and pressurized hot water is an option.

If installed, a diesel is located below the companionway steps, with 270-degree accessibility from the cabin. Access aft is from the starboard cockpit cocker, or by removing a panel in the quarterberth.

Common complaints about the boat are the lack of engine and ice box insulation.

“Those are legitimate,” Hake says. “We had to sacrifice somewhere, so the thickness of insulation in the ice box is between 1-3/4″ and 2-1/2″. But it’s been improved in the last year. We can always add insulation to the engine box, but that adds a lot of weight.”

Construction Hake estimates that 500 man-hours are spent in the construction of each Seaward 25. Based on our inspection of four boats, three used, it appears that his crew is doing good work.

The lamination schedule for all Seaward models is substantially the same: following the application of a gelcoat, vinylester resins are employed in the skin coat. The next step is the layup of 1.5-ounce chop-strand mat applied with a chopper gun. “I know some people don’t like that,” says Hake, “but it’s an effective way of assuring that there’s resin on both sides of the strands.”

The balance of the layup includes a layer of 2 mm Coremat, which helps prevent print-through from the main laminate, followed by 1.5-oz.mat, 34-oz. triaxial cloth to add density and strength, and 1708 biaxial or 34-oz. triaxial mat. There’s no wood or structural coring in the layup of a hull.

In the deck, PVC foam and Coremat are provide structure and sound deadening, and the headliner is a solid fiberglass structural member vacuum-bonded to the deck.

Deck hardware is tapped into 1/8″ aluminum plates bedded in the fiberglass lamination, which has been tested to 14,000 psi, Hake says. “The aluminum has been tested to withstand 20,000 psi.”

The hull-deck joint is bonded with a slurry of polyester putty impregnated with talc and fibers, and fastened with stainless steel bolts on 6″ centers. The keel is constructed of a hollow fiberglass structural mold into which a slurry of resin and lead are added. It is attached to the hull with 5/8″ threaded rods embedded into the ballast and bolted, glued, and glassed to the hull.

The company fabricates most of its stainless steel parts, including shiny, precisely fabricated stainless steel ports, and four-bolt cleats.

With such a long production run, there are some differences in construction details and quality between model years. Prospective buyers should consult online discussion groups for specifics, for example the Seaward Yachts Forum linked through www.trailersailor.com .

Performance With assistance from Karen Trusty of The Sailing Life in Portland, Oregon, we sailed a two-year-old Seaward 25 on the Columbia River. At 6′ tall and weighing 165 pounds, the owner of the boat claims that he can rig and launch the boat by himself in only 1-1/2 hours.

Once underway we learned that she turns in a boatlength, despite the length of her keel, and backs in a straight line once the helmsman compensates for prop walk.

We sailed in 8-10 knots of wind, flying a 135-percent genoa, the maximum recommended by the designer, and full mainsail. The helm was responsive, and the boat quickly accelerated with the occasional puff of breeze.

In a steady breeze we sailed at 4-5 knots on a reach. Hardening up and pushing to within 45 degrees of the wind, speed dropped by about a knot. We couldn’t record precise speeds because of a dirty speedo impeller. In fact, it was hard to get an accurate feel for her performance altogether, because the river current flows into the prevailing winds. However, sailing cross-current on a beam reach, she showed good speed, helm balance, and tracking. We’d like to take a longer sail to weather in open water.

She did provide a comfortable ride, especially when compared to water- ballasted trailerables, and was easy to sail with little muscular effort.

Power Optional powerplants are an outboard or 9- or 20-horsepower Yanmar diesels. Most boats are equipped with the1GM10, but owners in areas with stronger current and bigger seas voice the opinion that the larger engine is a better choice.

Price Characterized by Hake as a “Volvo,” there’s no arguing that the boat is priced in the upper stratosphere, compared to similar-sized trailerables.

Base price for the Seaward 25 is $34,000, FOB the factory. Add a wheel ($1,900), mast crutch ($210), 25 gallon portable head ($375), one-burner Origo stove ($250), Yanmar 1GM10 ($7,100), galvanized double-axle trailer ($3,600), instruments, and other accessories, and the price escalates by 25-40 percent.

Of the price, Hake says, “First, stand back and look at the boat. It’s very nice to have people stop you wherever you go and say ‘nice-looking boat.’ We pay more for one of our ports than the production builders pay for all of theirs, and ours are worth it.  Same for our 4-bolt  cleats, stanchion bases, winches, blocks. Our glasswork is several steps better. We recently made our trailer people use 2″ bearings, 6-ply steel-belted tires, and the best brakes you can put on a trailer.”

Conclusion We examined four of the boats, one new and three used. We found the workmanship to be consistent. Gelcoat surfaces were smooth and free of printthrough. We saw no evidence of crazing. Except for normal wear and tear, a well-maintained boat appears to stand up well to normal use. Construction is certainly solid, and the hardware first-rate. We still aren’t sure about the backstay connection, but do acknowledge the picture of the boat being suspended by the pulpits.

The basic hull design and rig are well-suitedfor coastal sailing, real gunkholing, and fairly easy trailering. The cockpit, deck, and running rigging layouts are simple and workable for a singlehander. The layout belowdecks shows a sensible mix and weighting of elements—an enclosed toilet and a workable galley in a boat this size are pretty fair accomplishments. The “camper” elements—portable fuel tank provision, ability to access the quarterberth from the cockpit, large ice-box space with the sacrifice of insulation—seem to us wise choices, considering how the boat will likely be used.

For most potential buyers, her greatest drawback will be price. Water-ballasted, trailerable 25-footers (her competition) sell for significantly less, assuming the use of outboard power. They aren’t built as robustly, and will depreciate faster and farther, but they get the basic job done. The extra $300-400 per foot that Hake charges for the Seaward 25 might, for the devoted cruising couple in Florida, the Bahamas, or anywhere there’s shallow water to be explored, be worth the difference in the long run.

In the used-boat market, the resale value of a five-year-old Seaward 25 is typically between 85 and 90 percent of its original price. At press time, there are 12 used Seaward 25s advertised for sale on the Internet. Asking prices range from $13,500 to $53,900, with the average around $42,000.

Hake Yachts, Inc. 772/287-3200 www.seawardyachts.com

RELATED ARTICLES MORE FROM AUTHOR

Hello owner of 1995 seaward 25 26,9 with 9 hp can I install a 3 cyl fresh water Yanmar with out much difficulty

also added 2 in forward and 2 in depth on rudder, was thinking of adding 4 in to the wing keel Thank You

I have a 25′ from 1990, Great boat ! considering replacing the rigging soon. Does anyone know if the end fittings on mast are Seaward/Hake specific?!

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Early forerunner of the Seaward Fox

16' 6" 17' 4" 14' 10" 1' 7"/2' 7" 25' 0"

outboard 3 to 6 hp 34%

Starboard Yacht Co.

portable portable

Min./max. draft: Bridge clearance: Power: B/D ratio:

Designer: Builder:

Years produced: Sail area: Fuel tankage: Water tankage:

Approx. trailering wgt.: 1,850 lbs.

Nick Hake started Starboard Yacht Company in 1979 with the cute little Slipper 17. Over the years the dimensions varied a bit, and so did the rig (cat or sloop ), the deck configuration (deckhouse or flush deck) and the name of the builder (Starboard, Seaward, Hake Yachts) but with Nick Hake always in control. See the Seaward Fox II on page 56 for more. Best features: Relatively wide beam gives her more space inside compared to her comps. She was available over the years in several different layouts, including two-

berth, three-berth, and the four-berth model shown. (Two berths is probably the maximum most sailors would want to try, except for those with very small children.) Worst features: The early models had a rudder with too little area for quick manueverability (note the deeper rudder on page 56). Shallow draft, whether in the plain keel model (1' 7" draft, shown here) or the centerboarder, is insufficient for good upwind performance. Sail area is on the low side (later corrected by adding 20 square feet on the Seaward Fox II).

Continue reading here: A product of a company that has left no trace

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• Sailboat Guide

Slipper 17 is a 16 ′ 9 ″ / 5.1 m monohull sailboat built by Hake Yachts (Seaward) between 1981 and 1991.

Rig and Sails

Auxilary power, accomodations, calculations.

The theoretical maximum speed that a displacement hull can move efficiently through the water is determined by it's waterline length and displacement. It may be unable to reach this speed if the boat is underpowered or heavily loaded, though it may exceed this speed given enough power. Read more.

Classic hull speed formula:

Hull Speed = 1.34 x √LWL

Max Speed/Length ratio = 8.26 ÷ Displacement/Length ratio .311 Hull Speed = Max Speed/Length ratio x √LWL

Sail Area / Displacement Ratio

A measure of the power of the sails relative to the weight of the boat. The higher the number, the higher the performance, but the harder the boat will be to handle. This ratio is a "non-dimensional" value that facilitates comparisons between boats of different types and sizes. Read more.

SA/D = SA ÷ (D ÷ 64) 2/3

• SA : Sail area in square feet, derived by adding the mainsail area to 100% of the foretriangle area (the lateral area above the deck between the mast and the forestay).
• D : Displacement in pounds.

Ballast / Displacement Ratio

A measure of the stability of a boat's hull that suggests how well a monohull will stand up to its sails. The ballast displacement ratio indicates how much of the weight of a boat is placed for maximum stability against capsizing and is an indicator of stiffness and resistance to capsize.

Ballast / Displacement * 100

Displacement / Length Ratio

A measure of the weight of the boat relative to it's length at the waterline. The higher a boat’s D/L ratio, the more easily it will carry a load and the more comfortable its motion will be. The lower a boat's ratio is, the less power it takes to drive the boat to its nominal hull speed or beyond. Read more.

D/L = (D ÷ 2240) ÷ (0.01 x LWL)³

• D: Displacement of the boat in pounds.
• LWL: Waterline length in feet

Comfort Ratio

This ratio assess how quickly and abruptly a boat’s hull reacts to waves in a significant seaway, these being the elements of a boat’s motion most likely to cause seasickness. Read more.

Comfort ratio = D ÷ (.65 x (.7 LWL + .3 LOA) x Beam 1.33 )

• D: Displacement of the boat in pounds
• LOA: Length overall in feet
• Beam: Width of boat at the widest point in feet

Capsize Screening Formula

This formula attempts to indicate whether a given boat might be too wide and light to readily right itself after being overturned in extreme conditions. Read more.

CSV = Beam ÷ ³√(D / 64)

Starboard Yacht Company was taken over by Hake Yachts.

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trailer sailers - seaward vs precision

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Hi there - after many years of saving we now have some cash in hand to buy my first sailboat, but trying to decide which boat to buy.... Having gone back and forth on 27-30 ft keelboats, I decided it's best to start with a trailerable 23-25 ft sailboat, since it will be easier to learn on (I used to sail as a kid, but skills are rusty currently) and I like the idea of being able to move it around. I narrowed down my search to the Precision 23, Compac 23 and the Seaward models (23,24,25). Budget is 15-20 k CAN$. I'll be sailing it on Lake Ontario and hope to trailer it to areas as Bay of Quinte / Thousand Island / Georgian Bay, etc. It will be initially used as a day sailor, leaving it in a slip during the season. I have a young family of 5 (3 yng boys - aged 2, 4, 7). If the boys take it well, I might look into weekend trips, but will bring it slowly to them. If they don't like it, I want a boat that I can handle on my own or with friends) I would appreciate advice between the various models mentioned above. Also looking to find out the differences between the 3 Seaward models, particularly wrt number of berths. I quite like the S25, but it really goes for quite a premium. The S24 seems to go for significantly less. many thanks in advance  

There is little difference between the Seaward 24 and Seaward 25, other than age- the 24s are older, and IMO are good value. The Seaward has more room than the Precision, but the Precision is arguably a more performance oriented boat. However, "more room" is subjective. Our boat has space similar to a Seaward 25, and it is tight for two of us and two dogs. If you are going to be in a slip for the season, I wouldn't worry over much about trailerability. You might trailer it once or twice a season, so you might want to widen your search to boats like a Catalina 27 or an older Hunter Cherubini designed 27. If you can find one with a trailer, and there are a number of them out there, you are golden.  

You may want to re-evaluate your decision criteria to include the MacGregor line of trailerable sailboats, they seem to fit your reqirements more suitably and if you should decide it was a mistake they are very easy to sell at close to what you pay for it. The MacGregor is very easy to sail single handed and easy to trailer and launch and can be towed with a class 3 traler hitch. They have plenty of room below to get the young boys out of the weather when it turns inclement and the boys will learn to sail one on their own at a young age. You can leave it in a slip or park it in your driveway, choice is yours, but with a trailerable you are not required to maintain a slip while trying to sell it since it can be sold from your driveway. MacGregors are eay to come by and easy to sell, versatile and easy to handle, a very good beginners sailboat, the kids would love it and they are very spacious, moreso than any other sailboat of the same length. Check a few out.  

Don't neglect the esthetic component. Seawards and many others have a very contemporary look that can be plastic-y to a lot of people. Check out their interior pics for the 26: Hake Yachts 26RK Interior Pictures MacGregors are like this also. Some people like the clean look, some people don't, and it may well strike a lot of people neutrally. I caught a glimpse of a slipmate's newly purchased Seaward and fell in love, until I saw the interior. It felt like the inside of an airline bathroom to me, all molded plastic. Very practical, but not appealing to my eye. This may or may not make a difference to you. If you are considering spending that amount of money I would definitely look at LOTS of interior pictures and, if you can, go on to a lot of boats. The interior layout and feel has a lot to do with how much enjoyable time someone spends on a boat. Carlos  

thanks all for the feedback. The Seaward / McGregor intereriors do not disturb all that much. The exterior however of the M26 does disturb me somewhat, though the older ones 26s or d seem better "esthically". I do take on board CaptKermie comment wrt the addional space on a M26 for the kids. With that in mind, how about the Catalina 250 WB? Any feedback on that? Can I get one around my budget? It sure is prettier (and more expensive) than the M26. I really like the freedom trailering gives me, so moving to a 27 ft yacht despite the additional space / relative same cost etc, is something I am hesitant about. The P23 seems to give me good looks (I really like the side decks) and good performance. The larger 25 ft water ballast models listed give me significant more space, though not as good looking.... Again quite interested in feedback on the C250 WB. Comments?  

I used to have a Precision 23. I loved the "classic" looks, the decent quality gear (Harken), the good build quality and the manufacturer was very responsive to questions (and when I had a part break, sent me out a new one at no charge). If I had to go back to the day I made a decision on the P23, I can say I'd be like you - have a hard time between choosing a Precision vs. a Seaward. I didn't know the Seaward's existed at that point though, so my decision was vs. Catalina and Hunter, and the Precision beat them (from my perspective). The P23 doesn't have all of the comforts that some of the other same class boats have (no dedicated area for the head, no pop-top, etc., but she sails incredibly well, is well built, has good support, and looks beautiful. Those were my criteria. I can't really compare them against the Seaward though since I don't know it well. You might want to check out Precision Sailboats Forum - Message Index  

Hi Niel, I am in the same region and I'm looking at a Trailable Sailboat to. My choice was between the hunter 260, catalina 250 and the macgregor 26S (1991 to 1995) since Macgregor seems to not make sailboat anymore but those motorsailer... Seaward looks really nice but they are much more expensive then the catalina and hunter and macgregor... Let us know what you choose  

IMHO, the best small trailer sailer racer/cruiser out there is the S2 7.9. Maybe out of your budget though. There are a lot of trailerable boats, but not many that sail particularly well.  

Speed wise, what would be the difference between at S2 7.9 and a Mac 26S or Catalina 25?  

Much. While not a perfect indicator of performance, looking up a boat's PHRF handicap can give a good general idea of what you're looking for. Both the Mac and Catalina rate around 222, the S2 around 168. (seconds per mile). They sail very well on all points (upwind especially, the S2 will just crush the Mac and Catalina with both speed and point), are very well built, trailerable, and have good accommodation for a 26' boat.  

Lamda said: Thanks for your comments Puddinlegs. The last time I sailed it was about 15 years ago when I was a kid. I just know that the sail boat we were on was a 30 some feet Benneteau which I know are very good. I don't have that kind of money right now lol. I like the Mac, Catalina, S2 and probably all of them. I just want to learn and enjoy being on the water at a reasonnable price for now. What is the maintenance cost of a sail boat? I owe a motorbike and they are cheap to maintain if you do your stuff yourself like changing your oil, brakes and so on. So I can do a season of motorbiking for around $1,000 to $1,500 depending how often I do trackdays on my bike. What would be the maintenance cost of a sailboat? I heard that trailable sailboat are less expensive to maintain as well? What would be the difference between a Mac a Catalina or a S2? Sorry Niel, I hope I don't ruin your thread Click to expand...

How big a "trailerable" boat can you actually launch from the trailer? I have seen small sailboats with a full keel that would be impossible from a boat ramp without a 50' tongue. A boat that requires a crane to launch loses a lot of mobility and convenience.  

Great comment, Cpt. Bill. I see many boats sitting on trailers that are indeed trailerable......but do not at all appear "launchable" without a crane. Having transitioned from motor boats to sailboats, I learned that launching a sailboat of equal length required MUCH more time and effort. Mast stepping, rigging, etc...not to mention the increased draft requires more rampage. I am also in the market for a P21 or P23, and will consider the other trailerables as well, and have been following this thread with interest. Any comments related to the actual launching and recovery of these boats would be appreciated by this lurker as well.  

It's interesting. I see that the S2 seems to be a lot better boat than the MAc and Catalina. The interior is not too bad to spend the week-end and if I want to race, the S2 will be a good choice. Do you guys think it's a good boat to learn on?  

I don't see why not. It's not complex, nor is it a tweaky sport boat. Personally, I'd steer someone toward a boat that sails well and is relatively standard in set up. There aren't many truly trailerable boats that fit that bill. The S2 has a good class association that can provide a lot of help and specific advice. I would take sailing lessons, or have some experienced friends/aquaintences help you get up and running. The S2 also holds its value relatively well. If you were considering a keel boat, I'd say a Thunderbird would be a nice first boat that would serve your purposes as well.  

s2 I have always liked the S2 7.9. FYI, I believe the beam is over the legal limit for trailering w/o a permit in most states (generally 8'6"). It might be close enough you wouldn't get caught, but you might be SOL if you had an accident while trailering. FWIW I used to trailer a 5,000 lb with a 3.5 foot draft. With a tongue extension it was launchable on most ramps.  

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Seaward 32RK and 26RK Ocean-Going Capabilities

• Thread starter Skipper J
• Start date Dec 26, 2023
• Brand-Specific Forums

Hi, Those of you with these boats, would you cross an ocean with them? The keel-lifting system looks like it would be great for exploring canals and rivers in Europe. Thank you.  

David in Sandusky

I read this review of the 32 RK. Seaward 32RK Is a ‘Thin-Water-Cruiser’ - Blue Water Sailing Not much to go on in the review. Some indicators of a blue water sailboat design are: - Capsize screen/ratio is less than 2. This indicates that the boat may recover if it is rolled over by a storm wave. - Comfort ratio is over 30. I could find neither of these ratios for the 32 RK on the web. - Cockpit is not too large. This makes it easier to hold on or wedge in, and reduces weight on the stern if a wave fills the cockpit with water. - Ample tankage for fuel and water. - Ample storage for food and eguipment. - Good bunks for sleeping under way. Low, near the middle of the boat for minimum movement. Then there are equipment needs. Things like an autopilot, a water desalinator, long distance communication, a life raft, … the list goes on. You can acquire this equipment for a boat with a good design. I recommend the book “Choosing a Cruising Sailboat“ by Roger Marshall for a good, understandable explanation of what makes a boat good for ocean cruises, or for other purposes.  

SBO Weather and Forecasting Forum Jim & John

If you are a good navigator, competent in weather planning, have the needed provisions for your boat, have prepared a Seaworth vessel and crew, one might take most boats out onto the ocean. It is when your seamanship skills are lacking and the boat preparation is weak that one learns their choice was poor.  

People have crossed the Atlantic in little more than a refrigerator but that doesn't mean I'd do it. Ignoring the classification and numbers, the boat is too slow to avoid weather systems. There is hardly a time of year in which there is no risk of a storm in a three week voyage. A major cause of voyage failures is loss of steering. I think the Seaward rudder is designed to pop up in shallow water. I would be uncomfortable with that. Fine for coastal cruising in Florida. Offshore? "?" OP asked for those who own one of these boats. So ... I don't.  

Here is the way I look at ratios about sailboats. The question I ask is what was the use for which the designer designed the boat. Every competent designer knows about The Capsize and Comfort ratios. So if they are designing a blue water cruiser, they will meet the minimums for that use. So the Capsize well above the recovery value of 2, and the Comfort well below 30 combine with the trailerability to tell me this is a coastal cruiser designed to trailer from an inland location to multiple sailing areas. Once there, its adjustable keel tells me it is a really good shallow water “gunkholer.” Lots of places in the North Chanel, Georgian Bay, Lake Erie, and Thousand Islands where it would really shine. I agree it would be great for canals and rivers in Europe. If that’s where I wanted to sail it, and if trailering it in Europe would work (regulations?, trailer specs?, towing vehicle?), I would look at having it shipped over there by ocean carrier.  

Good points by all, thank you. And I should not have said that I only wanted input from those who owned these boats. After I sent the message, I took a good look at the 32RK picture and thought 'why, why?' when I realized it was another open-transom design. Correct me if I'm wrong, but on many open transoms (this is partially open) it looks like a following sea can swamp it, or come close. Or let in unwanted visitors. Maybe a good nickname for them is Shark Chutes! My apologies to those who have and like them. Good point too about the RK32's small rudder, and overall design intentions. It would be good for the Great Lakes. Being able to outrun ocean storms is definitely a plus. Any info on the best way to ship a boat to Europe is appreciated. As an information-gathering exercise, I subscribed to the Pro edition of Predict Wind during their recent 50% off sale in order to watch global weather patterns to see when the Northern route becomes doable. Definitely not now, unless one likes 36-foot seas. Looks like from AIS data that the recreational sailors are on the southern route across the Atlantic now. It's fascinating stuff to explore. FYI, the canals in England are narrower than the ones in France.  

Trip to Europe (and back) begins

David in Sandusky said: ...this is a coastal cruiser designed to trailer from an inland location to multiple sailing areas. Once there, its adjustable keel tells me it is a really good shallow water “gunkholer.” Click to expand

Kings Gambit

dlochner said: Recently Sailing Zinger rescued 3 people aboard a Bavaria 44 that had been dismasted in the middle of the Pacific Ocean off the beaten path. They have posted several videos about the rescue, with the last video the most relevant to this discussion. In it the rigging of a Bavaria Ocean 44 and a Bavaria 44 (the one that was dismasted) were compared. The take home story is all the ratios, capsize ratio, comfort ration, etc don't mean squat if the boat is not designed and built for off shore sailing. As @Tedd points out, the Seawards are not designed for offshore work. The can be sailed to the Bahamas because you can pick a weather window to get across the Gulf Stream and the trip can be as short as 50 miles. If exploring the canals of Europe are the goal, it might be best to buy a canal boat in Europe and sell when you're done. Click to expand

Late to the party, but if the o.p. is still here, I owned a Seaward 25 previously. We also looked at 32's when we were looking at larger boats, eventually buying a Catalina 350. My opinion is that neither the 26 or the 32 have strong enough rigs to make them a good boat for ocean crossings. Head to the Bahamas? Sure. I can tell you that the rig on my Catalina 350 is way more substantial than the ones on the Seawards, and I wouldn't take our 350 across an ocean. I wouldn't take me across an ocean either (not my thing). We loved our seaward, but used it as designed, lake sailing and coastal cruising. I wouldn't begin to have taken it out in some of the conditions we've sailed up on the Great Lakes in our bigger boat.  

Ok, thank you sesmith and all who have replied. Don't want to risk having a rig that isn't designed for it in waters that are too rough. Jsailem, I'll read that thread about the sailor taking the Northern route in its entirety soon to see if that's something in the cards. Iceland is dumbfoundingly beautiful and I'd like to visit again, this time by sea, if possible.  

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